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01 November 2009 @ 08:36 pm
If I could write a letter to Damian Kindler...  
This is what I'd write.

A couple of weeks ago, you asked for feedback on the Ashley situation. I didn't write back then as I hadn't seen the episode and didn't really want to be spoiled by the comments on your status.

Even though the likelihood is that you won't read this, or won't pay any attention, I want to at least add my own personal take on the situation, as I think it is quite different to a lot of the feedback you have received.

I was dubious at first about the idea of killing Ashley. But I liked it. It makes a path for Helen to become that darker, more morally ambiguous character from the webisodes, and we get to see the impact of what we've known for a long time - that Helen would outlive her daughter.

I also love the idea that not everything is neatly wrapped up with a bow. There was no body, so it was hard for Helen to find closure. But she had to. She had to move on. Life isn't neat, not everything is all perfectly boxed. And all too often there are no remains, little evidence.

I read in a recent sci-fi wire article that you are thinking of writing an Ashley story-arc next season in response to the backlash of the online fans. I must say that I was disappointed in this. I have long opposed so-called "sci-fi deaths". They're clichéd and often negate and trivialise the feelings of the characters who felt that loss. Whilst I trust your team's skills enough to know that they would not do this, I do feel that it would be a great shame to backtrack on such an unusual and very bold move.

In addition to this, it is important to remember that the online fandom is the minority, albeit a vocal one. Those that are content with the situation will rarely speak out, which is why I feel it's important to offer this alternative perspective. I think Joe Mallozzi's recent blog on the subject of fandom made a lot of important points on this subject.

At the end of the day, how many fans will be upset by Ashley being brought back and lose faith in a show that they considered bold and gutsy, compared with the number who are currently upset, but will get over that?

You made a big decision, a really bold move. And the upshot of that is that now we, as fans, are out of our comfort zone. We never really know if the characters are safe. Any one of them could be killed off. It gives a very real sense of danger which we often lose in the world of television, due to the prevailing heroes. And the potential scope for character development is wonderful.

It is not that I dislike Ashley, nor Emilie. It is simply that I believe you have made a decisionyou ought to stick by, and that listening to the views of fans is very different to being "bullied" into backtracking by various campaigns and threats. It is your show, your story and you should do what you feel is right, not what a vocal minority of angry, fans (Who I consider to have a deluded sense of ownership over the show) want you to do.
 
 
 
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Sajwest[info]sanctuarysarah on November 1st, 2009 09:05 pm (UTC)
If I'm perfectly honest, I don't agree with you at all.
I'm one of the ones in the "minority" who would welcome Ashley back with open arms.It's not out of any sense of deluded ownership of the show, even if I have been watching since the webisodes so feel part of it, it's because I don't think they went as far as they could with the character.There was still so much potential for stories between her and Helen and her and Druitt.She had only just found out who her father was and had about 2 episodes interaction with him!
Now Emilie herself has stated that it was a decision taken by SyFy and was more or less forced on the producers, and I don't like that.
Admittedly the first 3 episodes of this season have been some of the best since it started, and I don't feel it would devalue anything if she came back.After all....no body.
The writers would have the chance to explore how Ashley would cope with what happened to her, how Helen would handle having her daughter back and everything else that came with it.

Trialia: [bsg] laura - black&white[info]trialia on November 1st, 2009 09:06 pm (UTC)
Even in that circumstance, Ashley is Action Girl. If they brought her back any time within this next season, it's highly unlikely Emilie would be able to do much of that after the specific surgery she's just had.
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Tracy Jane: geek[info]tjh102 on November 1st, 2009 10:47 pm (UTC)
My "deluded ownership" comment is more aimed at those who believe that it is their God-given right to change the course of the show. I realise that those are a very small minority of those who are upset by the creative decision, but they dotend to be the most vocal.

I agree that there was still a lot of potential for the character, and in some ways, it is a shame. But at the same time, I personally prefer the implications of her being and remaining dead.

You are right that there are ways of not cheapening the feelings of the other characters. But I like the realism of it. I like how there are not answers to everything in life and we still have to deal with it.

But you know, each to their own. I'm not anti-Ashley, and, in the right way, I could cope with Ashley coming back (I certainly wouldn't stamp my feet and threaten not to watch the show). But I really dislike the idea of fans believing it's their right to change the direction the show.

I think there's a big difference between expressing displeasure and some of the vitriole I've seen on the net.

Thank you for discussing and doing it in such a polite manner. I do love debate and discussion but, all too often on the internet, it turns into little more than a slanging match.
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Trialia[info]trialia on November 1st, 2009 09:05 pm (UTC)
Well said. As you know, I agree, particularly because they actually followed up on it the very next episode rather than making it one of the ambiguous "sci-fi deaths". I love that. It's set up the very next ep wonderfully, given the meaning of that title, and it's a relief to finally see something that doesn't involve backtracking on a character death and ruining all the character development for the others that would be caused by that death. I'm itching to see how it's dealt with later on.

Also, you should tweet Damian a link to this. Or would you like me to? Given all I've seen with the vocal ones, he probably could do with the support.
It's an ocean...a dark ocean...: Helen and Ashley[info]faded_fae on November 1st, 2009 09:15 pm (UTC)
While I respect your views and I think you put forth your opinion quite well, I disagree. Without a body, and without any real sense of closure, I'm still left scrambling for Ashley. It felt more tacked on to me, a way to avoid addressing Kabal again and a way to introduce another new character who still hasn't done much of anything useful. Ashley was a way for Helen to hold onto her humanity, so to speak, and a reminder of the lighter side of life.

Why can't Helen be dark, morally ambiguous, and retain her daughter? Also, I'd heard Emilie was cast for the whole season, so this sudden death must have been quite a shock to her.

There was also such a possibility for the whole family to interact as a family, and to explore more back story with Helen, Ashley, and John. To me, Ashley was part of the team, and Kate was a cheap way to replace her.

I don't think bringing her back would make her death cliched. After all, without a body and without much closure beyond the little granted, it's hard to really accept her death. But that's just me.

I think, however, you are discounting greatly the internet fandom size. True, there are people who watch the show and aren't in the online fandom, but I think a lot of people in the fandom came from it because of the webisodes. And yes, people who are satisfied don't generally speak out, because of their satisfaction, but that's not to say you can safely judge who was satisfied and who wasn't when there are so many varying opinions.

I don't mean to bore you (or to ramble), so I'll stop here. I'm sure you'll amass quite a bit of different opinions the longer this entry is up.
Trialia: [bsg] laura - black&white[info]trialia on November 1st, 2009 09:21 pm (UTC)
I'm peripheral in this fandom, have been for a while, and most of my RL friends who watch Sanctuary, so far, are still happy and interested in the show despite - in some cases because of - Ashley's death. I was curious when I saw a couple of people kicking off on Twitter, so I asked around. Seems about a 50/50 split so far. Possibly 60/40 in favour offline, other way about on. Just thought I should tell you that. I didn't start watching until mid-way through the first season because I was still bitter about Stargate, but now I am, I'm enjoying it...

Also, um, random comment, but Idk how long you've known Tracy, but she's the last one to discount the size of internet fandom. Seriously.

(I need a Sanctuary icon. Hmm.)
Title Goes Here - [info]faded_fae on November 1st, 2009 09:23 pm (UTC) Expand
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Tracy Jane[info]tjh102 on November 1st, 2009 11:08 pm (UTC)
I agree that there was a lot of potential still for the character and that it was probably a shock for the actress. I also have my own personal opinion that Kate may have just been an easy way for the network to get their "ethnic minority character" in there. I know that most networks push for that sort of thing. But I don't know and it's not really fair for me to put that label on Darshi when she may well have got it on talent alone.

There's no reason that Helen could not have had both, but to dramatically change a character, you need a dramatic trigger.

I understand the fact that closure is hard without a body. But I find that it makes a greater impact. It *is* harder to deal with. That, in my opinion, was the point.

I also don't think that I'm discounting the internet fandom size. I will admit that the proportion for Sanctuary is probably greater than for other shows, largely due to the fact that it started as webisodes. But first of all, at conventions I've been to, only 50% or so have been actively involved in online fandom. And that is, pretty much, something you need internet access to find out about. So for only 50% ish to be part of the community...

In larger circles, if we look at webisode statistics, 4 million people worldwide watched the webisodes. But not all 4 million of those were part of online fandom for Sanctuary. There are currently about 33,000 members of the Sanctuary forums. Even if all of those were active in online fandom, then that number of people is less than 2% of the total average viewers.

In reality most of those 33,000 members are either silent, posted once and left, automatically added from the old site, or spambots. Yes, I realise there are other sites, but then you have to accept the number of people in fandom that are members of multiple sites. I believe Sanctuary fandom is currently estimated at between 5000-9000, based on the usual ratio of fanlisting to actual viewers.

I don't mind the rambling, honestly. I like the debate.
Title Goes Here - [info]faded_fae on November 1st, 2009 11:16 pm (UTC) Expand
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hobbit ・holmes: » sanctuary ○ helen jones[info]hobbit_hunter on November 1st, 2009 09:41 pm (UTC)
I personally only want Ashley back if they find a perfect way of doing it. Because Eulogy was such a perfect expression of how Helen had to move on. Even if people didn't like what happened, you have to admit that it was at least a beautifully acted and written episode. If you bring Ashley back you have to beat that. It's the only way to do it any justice.

I'll be disappointed otherwise, but I watch the show for other reasons than Ashley.

Sadly, writers pander to fans. You see it in big shows like Heroes and House, MD.
Tracy Jane[info]tjh102 on November 1st, 2009 11:18 pm (UTC)
I think it's so sad that they do. Because they're writers. They're professionals. Can you imagine if Terry Prachett pandered to the fans? Or JK Rowling? Or anyone else? It would totally alter a fantastic story.

I agree that Eulogy was a fantastic episode and showed the reality of the raw emotion and the inability to accept, especially without a body. And the fact that you have to, eventually.

Again, I agree that there's far more to Sanctuary than Ashley. And so I wouldn't stamp my feet and leave if they did bring her back, but I personally like the finality.
Denise[info]skydiver119 on November 1st, 2009 09:42 pm (UTC)
You know, I don't care that she's gone. Ashley, last season, really didn't do all that much. The main focus was on Helen and Will...and apparently the ship focus was such that they gave Will a girlfriend to tone that down.

I didn't wish Ash gone, and I like the mother/daughter angle. I will miss that. It was unique and rare, and she's been replaced by a smart ass with a chip on her shoulder and ambiguous past...time will tell if Kate is more than just a token young female to make the fanboys happy.

I'm not gutted that Ash is gone, I'm not gutted if she returns. that said, dude, i AM getting sick and tired of the 'no body dies for real in scifi' card that keeps getting played. Boys, grow a pair, if you're gonna kill them, stand behind that decision and keep them dead. This whole 'ah geez fans are upset, let's bring them back' just cheapens any potential 'death'.

So, I'm not emotionally upset that Ash is gone, but I do miss the unique aspect of parent/child that has been sacrificed to cater to some formula.

I won't campaign to bring Ash back, but I won't stop watching the show if she is.

What I do think would be interesting...if Emilie comes back, but isn't Ash. A shape shifter abby that takes on Ash's appearance to fool helen, who maybe falls for it for a bit, only to find out that she's been duped and this abby ends up stuck in Ash's appearance...but isn't Ashley.

If you're gonna play the 'no one dies for real' card, at least do it creatively and uniquely...not this whole cloning, alternate universe junk they always do.
Tracy Jane[info]tjh102 on November 1st, 2009 11:21 pm (UTC)
Oh, Sky. I'm in complete agreement. I was fairly ambivalent to Ashley. I too liked the mother/daughter angle, but like you say, they didn't do enough with that. In so many ways, I think they'll manage to do more with that angle now that she's dead than before.

And as I've said to someone else, I have a sneaky suspicion, like you, that there's a "network formula" being adhered to in the casting of Kate.

I honestly think you're right that Emilie would have to come back as a shape shifter or something else. Because the get out of jail card is old. And yes, it's the fan ownership that is the most maddening.

Thank you so much for posting. I don't feel so silly now!
doylefan22: sanctuary - geeks with guns[info]doylefan22 on November 1st, 2009 09:50 pm (UTC)
I agree with what you say about the death of Ashley. Whilst it made me bawl my eyes out I thought it was brilliantly written and acted. It was tragic, heartbreaking and painful and all involved should be very proud of three excellent episodes of television.

I do think however that there is room to bring her back without cheapening what came before. This season will continue without her and Helen and the others will have to deal with the fall out from that. With the right story however, her eventual return could be just as brilliant. That's why I'm pleased that they've left the door open a little.
Tracy Jane[info]tjh102 on November 1st, 2009 11:23 pm (UTC)
As I said in my writing, I agree that there is room and they could probably do it well.... but I would just much rather they didn't.

There aren't many shows that have the balls to do what Sanctuary has done. And personally, I think leaving the door open a little, makes it that much harder for Helen to accept, and it makes it that much more tragic and beautiful.
2Shy: Cool Ash[info]photoshopaddict on November 1st, 2009 09:52 pm (UTC)
I’m so torn with the whole Ashley thing, my rational part of my brain agrees with you 100%, this is a huge opportunity for the deepening of the darker Helen, it was a brave choice and I support team Sanctuary with my whole heart and trust them to do the right creative choices (they’ve played this game long enough to know what they want vs. what the loudest fans say they want)

But at the same time my heart cries because I want Ashley back so badly, I miss her already and it’s only been one episode since she left. It’s silly how emotionally invested I’ve become over these last few episodes, it’s just a tv-show FCOL!
But at the same time I guess that’s a testament of how damn good this show really is if it can affect a person so profoundly.

So I think I’ll let you be my rational guiding light in this issue while I go back to wallow in my pit of fictions angst. :P

(Just one thing, I don’t know if you’ve listened to the podcast for Eulogy, but they already mention a possible Ashley story there for season 3 and that’s recorded before any fan had a chance to see and react to the episode, and if I’m correct it was even recorded before EoN2 was aired too)
Tracy Jane: molly[info]tjh102 on November 1st, 2009 11:27 pm (UTC)
I haven't listened to any of the podcasts.

I'm torn on bringing back Ashley anyway. If they'll do it regardless of fan opinion, then we have to deal with it. They know what they're doing (though I still wish this no-one is dead in sci-fi stuff would go die). It's the fan opinion altering them and making them lose their balls that often frustrates me.

Like you say, it's upsetting... but that's what makes good TV.

Hell, my favourite character got killed off in Episode 2 / webisode 1!
Title Goes Here - [info]kirsten_faith on November 2nd, 2009 12:47 am (UTC) Expand
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Falcon Horus: Sanctuary[info]falcon_horus on November 1st, 2009 11:15 pm (UTC)
I partially agree with you.

Ashley's death left me quite shocked to say the least cause it came as a total surprise. Sanctuary for me is one the only few shows that I prefer to be unspoiled for. I try my best to avoid any and all spoilers - with varying success though.

I think the episodes were done brilliantly and I'd watch them again in a heartbeat. I love the continuity of it all. And I'm absolutely looking forward to the consequences this will have on Helen and the team. But especially Helen. We already saw what it did to Druitt, going back to his old Ripper days. The character development that this can bring to the others.

I love all the characters in Sanctuary (not many shows pull that off for me) and I loved Ashley. She was cute, brave, awesome, funny, a bit of a bratt sometimes... she totally kicked ass that was for sure. Loved the interaction between the other characters.
And if Kate is supposed to her "replacement", then so be it. For the record, I happen to like Kate Freelander. She's different enough from the Ashley character to fit right in with the gang as far as I am concerned.

Now the part I don't agree on... (the other half of your post then)

It absolutely annoys the hell out of me that there are people out there who think they have the right to call others on their behavior within the fandom. If this so-called minority wants to fight for Ashley - let them. The people out there that feel like they own the place - let them be. They're not hurting anyone. Everybody has a right to their own opinion, and I'm sure TPTB of Sanctuary know what they are doing. It's one of the few PTB-teams that I actually believe in to deliver great TV. If they feel they can outdo Eulogy and bring Ashley back in some way than I'm sure they can somehow pull it off. If they can't then so be it. I would have had 2 great seasons of Sanctuary (+ de webisodes) and be done with it.

Don't worry about others. Don't complain about others, or what they think or value. Everybody's different and everybody has an opinion, which is just as valid as yours or mine.
Trialia: [bsg] laura - black&white[info]trialia on November 1st, 2009 11:34 pm (UTC)
But they are hurting people. Damian Kindler is very new to the writing part of fandom, and he's been getting vitriol from all over Twitter for this, poor guy. It's not fair on him that they choose to do that. He hasn't behaved to us like Joe Mallozzi did, why should they dump on him in such terms for this? I think if they'd just been civil and coherent and nice, they might have gotten somewhere just as well!
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Harbinger of Doom: Evil Genius[info]shadowmaat on November 1st, 2009 11:30 pm (UTC)
Well, speaking as someone who only saw most of S1 of the show and has no vested interest in current/future plot developments... I say let Ashley stay dead/gone. One of the biggest gripes I have with the entire scifi genre is the fact that people rarely stay dead. The "get out of death free" card has been played ad nauseum and makes death itself kinda pointless. I hate it and IMO it lessens the dramatic impact of a character's death and it makes the writers look spineless when they bring him/her back at a later date, particularly when it's done because of irate fans.

Personally I don't care if it means losing my favorite character forever: the dead should STAY dead. Just because you can bring someone back doesn't mean you should and the more often it gets done the more trite it becomes. At least in my not-so-humble opinion. ;)

As for the "there's so much they could have done with him/her" defence, well, yeah, that's kinda the point. Whether in fiction or reality people rarely die at a point where they've outlived their usefulness/ability to evolve. That's part of the reason that death has such an impact is because of the loss of potential that accompanies the snuffing out of a life.

Now if a character is killed off because of offscreen politics I can see having an issue with it, but if it's just the way a story develops and it's a mutually agreed-upon arc then I don't have any particular problems with it. And again, it'd be REALLY REALLY nice if once in a while someone died and STAYED DEAD. Please?
Tracy Jane[info]tjh102 on November 1st, 2009 11:44 pm (UTC)
That's how I see it. As much as I like the relationship she had with her mother and so on, it's just the whole "get out of death" card. I really cannot stand it and to have a sci-fi show that, very early on, goes "She's dead, deal with it" would be a good thing.

Yes, there were off screen politics, so I can see some of the issues with it, but I still don't see why TPTB should backtrack on their decisions. Or, as seems to be the case, attribute previously made decisions to a fan response.

Completely agree with all your points, so there's no point me paraphrasing and repeating them down here.
tamie[info]tamie00 on November 2nd, 2009 01:04 am (UTC)
I'm much more of a passive observer of fandom, so I've not participated in any of the discussion about Ashley. But I would like to say thank you so much for opening up a calm and thoughtful discussion about a topic that really hasn't been discussed in such a manner.

I am upset over Ashley's death, as I would be upset over any characters death (maybe less so, considering she quite underdeveloped).
I'm not upset over the creative decision to kill the character. I agree it was a very bold move and the creative team would have known in advance they were going upset/lose some fans.

As a initial fan of the Webisodes, I really do hope they use this opportunity and explore the darkness of Helen. As great as it would be to see Ashley again, I think the effects of a real death would be far more interesting to see.
Tracy Jane[info]tjh102 on November 2nd, 2009 01:16 am (UTC)
Yes. I think the real tragedy of this situation would be if they didn't use this death to explore different sides to the other characters.

And you're welcome for the discussion. I always think there should be a nice, calm stage for a discussion without the vitriole and abuse.
ellymelly: fandom wank[info]ellymelly on November 2nd, 2009 01:29 am (UTC)
4th time lucky posting this LOL

i just wrote a really detailed response that IE deleted so bare with me LOL

Personally I agree with you. Whilst I liked Ashley, I believe that her demise has done more for the show than her continued presence. I've always felt that after the mini (in which the Ashley character had real attitude and direction) they weren't really sure where to go with her - as a result, she always seemed to be forced and a little lost.

Her departure was handled very well. It gave the show a chance to pull some real emotional weight, proved that it had guts and that there were consequences. (and also made GREAT TV) Not only that, but Helen's character just got a whole lot more interesting and her relationship/tie to John. Those two will have to reassess their entire relation to one another.

Kill me if you like, but i'm quite warming to Kate's unique breed of humour/action.
That said, I'm not sure how different this response would be if it was Tesla on the chopping block.

All the fandom wank over it though is quite perplexing. Honestly, what a small inhouse show like this needs is constructive objective criticism from its fans not juvenile stamping of feet. Lol.
Tracy Jane[info]tjh102 on November 2nd, 2009 01:31 am (UTC)
Nope. I'm warming to Kate too. It's just taking a while. But that's a television technique. In eps one and two (and three), the heroes didn't like her. They found her annoying. So we as an audience had to identify with our heroes and find her annoying too. Now she's been accepted and brought into the fold, we have to learn to accept her too.

Some people won't. For some, the damage has already been done. but I think she's developing nicely.
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Denise[info]skydiver119 on November 2nd, 2009 01:33 am (UTC)
If people don't agree with Damian, Martin, Amanda's et al's decision...fine. Don't agree. This is fandom, not Stepford.

That said, there's a world of difference between 'I don't agree' 'I didn't like....' etc. and 'OMG, you frakkers, how dare you kill her!!!! I hope you burn in hell' (and i have seen stuff along this line)

Please, I'm not dissing any singular person, but it's a TV SHOW. It's 43 minutes of entertainment. I would be more 'upset' on Emilie's behalf in that she's out of work, than I am gutted that a character is gone.

I have shows that I've watched for longer that did things that I simply cannot continue to watch (such as CSI Miami's obsession with David Caruso and the ratings gimick that Ghost Whisperer pulled last season), both of which got me to turn the shows off and find something else to watch. I hated both of these decisions.

I never sent a letter, never twittered or facebooked someone and took them to task for their decisions. I just stopped watching.

In the fandom as a whole - and not just this fandom - there is such a sense of entitlement and 'cater to me' that it's just mind boggling.

Get some perspective and recognize your place in the scheme of things...and in fandom, watch or don't watch. But unless you're cutting checks with lots and lots of zeros on them, you got no right to expect these people to cater to your personal preferences. So please stop.
Tracy Jane[info]tjh102 on November 2nd, 2009 04:30 pm (UTC)
This is a little stronger than your previous comment on the thread!

I agree that people are entitled to opinions. My goodness, last season I was made to feel about two inches tall by some fans because I dared to suggest that I thought Warriors was better than Requiem.

But like you say, it's the vitriole and abuse that seems to go hand in hand with that. And the entitlement. I prefer that phrase to the "ownership" one that I used. You always have such a way with words.

I too had a show I couldn't bear to watch anymore. And though I was vocal about that fact, again, I never took anyone to task for it. What's the point? It's their creative decision. However... if they had asked for feedback... then yes, I would have given it. But in a polite, calm and constructive manner. Because only then is it useful.
Gunhilda: Magnus smiling[info]gunhilda on November 2nd, 2009 03:38 am (UTC)
Just a couple of random observations. First, the Sanctuary team has actively and openly courted online fandom, and it seems to me that they have cultivated a strong relationship with fandom from the very beginning. So, to me, your dismissal of online fandom seems a bit... misplaced. I don't think the Sanctuary team dismisses online fandom, and, honestly, I think they seek and desire feedback from fans, perhaps more so than any other show on TV. I think it's part of their business and marketing strategy. So, yeah, I would expect them to pay attention to the feedback they're getting. (And really, I personally think that's pretty cool.)

Second, it wouldn't surprise me if the writers had a betting pool to see how long it would take for a "Bring Ashley Back" campaign to start. You don't kill off main characters and not expect there to be some outrage. It's one way to stir up interest in a show and keep people talking about it. While Damien may be surprised by the vehemence of some fans' reactions, I think it's silly to think that anyone on the Sanctuary team wasn't expecting a fair degree of outrage and upset over the episode.

That said, spewing hatred and anger is wrong on the part of fans, and those doing it should be ashamed of themselves. It wouldn't surprise me if the sheer meanness of it took everyone by surprise. Just because they are professionals does not justify rudeness and outright attacks. When all is said and done, they're people, too, with feelings just like everyone else. Shame on fandom for that.

As for killing Ashley, I wasn't surprised by it, and I liked the decision. I agree with you completely about its affect on Helen, and I would like to see that carried forward. While I don't feel strongly about bringing her back or not, I'd rather they leave her dead. Of course, there's always the possibility for a flashback episode that might involve her, and that would be fun.

Tracy Jane[info]tjh102 on November 2nd, 2009 04:26 pm (UTC)
I think, essentially, there is a big difference between listening to the fans and taking on board what they say, and then being bullied into doing something by the fans. If the fans give feedback and that sort of works with the outline you have in mind, or it is realistic and relevent, then fine. But to change an entire story simply because of the vitriole of a few fans seems excessive to me.

Then again, if a poster above is to be believed, this was already in development before fan reaction.

My main issue with the fan thing is not so much opinions or networks and production companies listening to those opinions, but rather the fact that some fans have this sense of entitlement and are quite malicious and abusive with that.

I just... I often wonder how many people are actually put out by a character being killed off. Proportionately speaking. Yes, it is good to listen to the fandom, and, as you say, the way that the team courted the online fandom was quite unique. But there has to be balance between retention of the creative process and adaptation. And it's also back to this thing of... are these vocal Ashley fans really in the majority? Or are they just the ones speaking the loudest?

In teaching we always say that we need to give five bits of praise for every criticism, because it's only the criticism that ever seems to ring loud and register. I sometimes feel that's the way with fandom too. It's so easy for us who are content to sit quietly and nod in satisfaction, while those who are discontent cry out. So if those upset cry out, is it a fair representation of what is really happening?

A flashback episode would be fun. And the nicest and least contrived way of doing it. Or, as someone else suggested, an abnormal who was a shape shifter and looked like Ashley.
Title Goes Here - [info]shadowmaat on November 2nd, 2009 07:09 pm (UTC) Expand
scarimor[info]scarimor on November 2nd, 2009 09:11 am (UTC)
It would be a mistake for the writers/producers to think any noisy hissy-fits of outrage at Ashley's loss are representative of audience reception. They're just noisy. And hissy. And probably from the juveniles. Writers should be wary.

Ashley's death made sense to me. It gives the other characters a painful axe to grind. I think I'd stop watching if Sanctuary became an Ashley resurrection show. Her comeback would have to be exceptionally skilfully done if I were not to yawn. It would really have to be a writing coup in the history of TV scifi writing. My suspension of disbelief has its limits.

Oh yes, and I like Kate too. A little tighter direction please (directors :)) but she's coming along nicely.

Edited at 2009-11-02 09:15 am (UTC)
Tracy Jane[info]tjh102 on November 2nd, 2009 04:39 pm (UTC)
I have to say, it's funny how most of the Anti-Kate brigade (and I say most not all, because I know one or two who don't fit into this category) are the ones upset by Ashley's death. It's the Daniel / Jonas situation all over again.

This is what worries me. That these vocal outbursts are considered representative. Because I would say that the vast majority of those who are content with the situation are a lot less vocal. After all, what have we got to be particularly vocal about? We like what's happening.

I think there are interesting and skillful ways to bring Ashley back. I briefly wondered about Tesla resurrecting a dead body. Because that would make her one of Tesla's mindless drones and then Helen would be faced with the difficult decision of whether to betray her morals to give the vampires intelligence and potentially get her daughter back, or to leave Ashley as a mindless drone and live with seeing her as such. Again.

Not perfect scenario, but you know... I'm not one of the writers. There are interesting ways to bring her back that have great consequences for the others.

But the problem is that it becomes another get out of jail free. The whole point of sci-fi is that we have real characters in extra-ordinary situations. Real characters die. Real characters feel pain. Real characters don't always have bodies over which to mourn. Doesn't make the death any less real.

Sigh... I could go on and on!
Title Goes Here - [info]scarimor on November 2nd, 2009 06:09 pm (UTC) Expand
Bad Shipper: love[info]jenniferjf on November 2nd, 2009 03:30 pm (UTC)
So glad you took the time to write this. Personally, I think what Damian et al have done here is brilliant. I actually found myself hoping throughout Eulogy that they not bring Ashley back. EoN and Eulogy managed to create a truly classical tragedy, something rarely seen on TV. To have ruined that by bringing Ashley back would have been to cheapen the effect and the integrity of the story and show itself.

And I'm one of those who absolutely loved Ashley. Her relationship with Helen, her relationship with John, and what it did to and for them was wonderful. I'll miss all that, and as it stands now, will continue to mourn all the plots and ideas that can now never be. Yet, at the same time, the very fact that I find myself upset and saddened by all the storylines and interactions that won't be now is a testimony to the show because, lets face it, that's how the characters themselves feel.

I agree it's also made Helen that much deeper as a character. We no longer simply know, or are forced to imagine, the effect all the goodbyes and losses of her long life have had on her. We have now seen, and can even feel, the pain of that by having lived with her what's probably the greatest loss she has known. We can empathize with her in a way we haven't been able to before. And that's absolutely brilliant TV making, IMHO.

So, am I upset that Ashley is gone? Yes. Absolutely. But I'm *supposed* to be. And the fact that I am as upset by it as I am is a measure of how amazing this show is.

As for the 6 million dollar question: do I want her back? The answer is, possibly. But I want to have time to see the results of her loss on the other characters and their interactions. And if she comes back, I want it to be in a way that matters - that is as impactful and significant as the way she died. I want it to be because it makes good Art - it's good for the story and for the characters - and not simply because online fandom demands it.

TBH, though, from everything I've seen and read about the show, if Ashley comes back, I don't think it's going to be because fans demanded it and will only be because it's the right thing to do for the show. Sanctuary has been made so far with as few artistic compromises as possible, at not insignificant cost to those making it, and I can't see that changing simply because a few vocal fans demand it. And lets face it, it should have been clear for some time that if you demand Happily Ever After, you're watching the wrong show.
Tracy Jane[info]tjh102 on November 2nd, 2009 04:41 pm (UTC)
Thank you, Jennifer, for your typically elegant and eloquent reply.

This is how I feel too. There is a great difference between being sorry to see the character go (or the potential that the character had) and wanting to see them come back.

And like you say, if she does come back, it needs to be for the right reasons. Though I'd still prefer her not to, on a personal note.
kat_rowe[info]kat_rowe on November 3rd, 2009 02:02 am (UTC)
I agree with most of that but an Ashley arc doesn't automatically translate to bringing Ashley back. There's also been talk of some Watson eps, all set in the past. I can see some flashback type eps just to bring some closure. That said, I don't like them bowing to the backlash, either. These writers have done an outstanding job so far and they should follow their vision, not listen to the shrieking whines of people who believe, among other things I've been hearing a lot of from them, that Ashley was the most layered and complex character on the show *shakes head*